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[Raven]

So I'm jumping into an area that some will drag politics in and I'm hoping they won't. I see the people in this as not adapting not a political thing.  That being said:


I think the economy is going to get worse in a bit and it will be cause by people still refusing to live in ther means: http://finance.yahoo.com/career-work/article/108129/life-on-severance-comfort-then-crisis.html?mod=career-salary_negotiation

"It will be D-Day," he says. "But on the outside, no one has any idea that we're in trouble."
Mr. Joegriner is a member of what might be called the severance economy -- unemployed Americans who use severance pay and savings to maintain their lifestyles. Many lost their jobs in 2007 and 2008, and thought they'd soon find work. Now, they're getting desperate.

I'm struggling to find work atm. How did we raise a group of people to be so elitist they would think finding work was easy

When Michelle Patterson was laid off as an executive director of marketing for a publishing company in January, she figured she could subsist comfortably, at least for a while, on the $20,000 she had reserved from her savings and severance combined. She continued to eat out regularly and made daily Starbucks runs.
"It made me feel like I was still at work," says the 41-year-old resident of Newark, N.J. She spent as much as $250 a week on networking meals and drinks with contacts. Some days, she scheduled up to four coffee meetings a day, picking up the tab most of the time. She also spent $30 a month for pedicures and $150 on her hair.

It I had that kind of $$ I'd guard it with my life and down size immediately.  I'd get a roommate and so much more to save even more $

Although their rent was cheaper, Mr. Hipsher says the family continued to spend like before. They moved with three cars -- two BMWs and a Chevy Silverado. They continued to buy cases of $36-a-bottle wine. They spent $250 a month on a cleaning lady, and Mr. Hipsher dropped $50 a week on flowers for his wife. The couple still dined out regularly.
"We were stupid," he says. "You become accustomed to a certain lifestyle. When your world changes and things dictate that you change, you're pretty stubborn to give things up."

I've never had 36.00 wine   However, at least he seem to know they messed up big time.  The other families mention cutting spending, but don't seem to get it completly

After losing his job, Mr. Joegriner expected to land on his feet within six months, he says. In that time, he turned down three job offers to be a chief financial officer, either because he didn't like the salary or the description of duties, and thought he could do better. One was nearby; the others would have required the family to move out of state. All paid somewhat less than he had previously earned.

Sadly I have family members on both sides of things politically that would piss through severance pay in no time. I'm not saying I'm the money saint by any means, but really this is messed up. 

Are these people arrogant, stupid, mislead as to thier importance in life or what?

[Ultrapoet]

When I lost my job around the start of the housing meltdown, I found a new and better one in about two months.

When I lost THAT job, well, I'm coming up on nine months of looking and still not much.  I think people assumed we were in a normal downturn, not a massive collapse of the system and that they'd be back at work soon enough.

The entire economy was running for YEARS on people living outside their means.  Wages were stagnant, so people used credit to elevate their lifestyle to the level they felt they should be living.  Looks like the people you're talking about didn't get the memo that this isn't a mere recession, this is the kind of shift that changes everything.  There is no 'normal' to go back to.

As for me, I've been indulging a little bit on eating out as of late--really need to rein that in--but most of my spending is in lockdown and I'm quietly accumulating a list of Things To Get When I Have Money Again.  I'm doing better than a lot of people since the only debt I have is my mortgage--the car is paid for and the credit card gets used so I can track spending more easily but gets paid in full when the bill comes in.  It helps that I've always been a thrift-shop-and-dollar-store kinda gal, so I don't feel as deprived as others might feel.

[mefree]

I know some people that need to read that article, too.

It is a very messed-up situation. Probably a few things play into it. One being that many people have never experienced a recession such as this and are in denial.

I wondered for many years how so many people could afford the huge houses I was seeing built all over the place. Now we come to find out that many of them really could not afford those houses and were living outside of their means.

On top of that, we had stinky loans being extended to people who could not afford them. So, on both ends of that interaction we have problems. I'm sure there was some ignorance involved. However, many people knew better and still chose to take the loans out.

This is a pretty simplified version of events.

What really bothers me more than those with their heads in the sand, is the number of people that seem to be willing to take advantage of others. Many hard-working people are trying to live within their means and have been affected.

[Ultrapoet]

On top of that, we had stinky loans being extended to people who could not afford them. So, on both ends of that interaction we have problems. I'm sure there was some ignorance involved. However, many people knew better and still chose to take the loans out.

There was more than ignorance--there was outright deception going on.  People were saddled with loans they simply couldn't pay, but they trusted the nice man in the suit and tie to know what he was doing.  There was also the problem of Adjustable Rate Mortgages with the five year 'teaser' rate that then exploded when the regular rate kicked in.  Normally, one would refinance (or move) by the end of those five years, but nobody was even contemplating the concept that rising house prices would be going down any time soon, and thus making refinance more than a little difficult when the value of the house has dropped below the balance of the loan . . .

I'm feeling a lot better about my dinky little condo with the 30-year mortgage, let me tell you.

[Alp]

I haven't even sipped out of a $10 bottle of wine, much less a $36 one! Soda, water, and OJ for me...

[Lorelei]

The problem here is with those of us who don't have extra cars to sell, maids to lay off, trips to Starbucks to cut down on, and so on. When you are already eating 99 cent Michelina's microwave meals all the time and gaining weight because you don't have a functional stove or oven to try and make healthier food with, haven't bought new clothes or shoes since 2003, drive a 10+ year old car that is slowly disintegrating at the seams, etc., you run out of things not to buy that you are already not buying. My primary expenses are health / medical insurance and prescriptions, car insurance, utilities, food & toiletries, gas, postage, pet food / vet / meds, etc. I also had to replace about $1000 of basic electronics after lightning hit the house and killed pretty much everything of mine BUT the laptop (thank god), but that was a couple of years before I was out of school and actively job hunting. My student loans will start billing me big bucks per month in February, as I already got a deferment.

What I could cut: traveling back and forth to ATL (done, though not happily), my clove cigarettes (Nooooooooooo, *whine*) and the approximately $20 a month I spend on a book or DVD that the library does not own.

I can't imagine spending $$$ on flowers, wine, coffee and other perishables without an income coming in. That's--sorry to say--retarded or willfully living in denial.

What's more scary is that I know I will need to spend on an interview suit and shoes if any of the hundreds of resumes and query letters I send every result in a single interested response. With what money, I ask?

[Alp]

You can do better economically than the Michelinas/frozen foods meals.

Get a loaf of bread, deli meats and a package of cheese. The bread will be $2-3, the meat will be about $3, and the cheese will be $2-2.50. For $8-9 you have roughly ten deli sandwiches that will last for up to two weeks.

For breakfast, a pack of 6 bagels and some Neufchatel cheese (low fat cream cheese) is $3 total, and that's six breakfasts.

Most of the grocery money for me gets wasted in the snack aisle, and with drinks.

Heck, I would love to be living by myself, so I could start cooking stuff from the produce section. That's where the real savings are, where a bag of potatoes would make SO many meals, and a bag of lettuce would allow me to salad it up for a week.

[Lorelei]

You get REALLY sick of sammiches (or ramen, or soup, or anything) after a while. I also vastly prefer hot meals, as does my tummy. Can't eat much raw veg, for instance, unless I want to pay and pay dearly. I have better things to do than piss off my tummy and then sit in the restroom all day. Cooked veg, that's usually no problem! Go figure. I can also sometimes tolerate raw carrots if I don't overdo it.

I do eat a lot of deli meat and cheese, but I skip the bread. I can take it or leave it, really, just like most condiments. Since I don't need bread as a surface to spread stuff on, it is useless calories to me.

I like bagels, but, again, that's a lot of bread, and I never manage to eat all the spread cheese in a container before it goes green and stanky. I eat dry cereal or have grits or oatmeal or go straight to lunch foods. Oh, I did get a good bargain on PopTarts a few weeks ago, and I am still swimming in them. A box of those = 8 tarts = 4 to 8 breakfasts, depending on my appetite. I usually only want one.

I also eat a LOT of 'taters. SO... MANY... POTATOES. POTATO OVERLOAD.

I do not have a working stove or oven, so cooking for myself is pretty much out. I'm just saying. The electrical connections in the house are old and my mom is too cheap to upgrade them, so the brand new stove / oven is not functional, and the big back room / sun room has no power running to it at all. Since there is no central air, and the only A/C on the main floor was in that room, this was not impressive to prospective buyers, though I doubt they figured out there was no power in that room since they tend to only bother me during the day.

I'm guilty of a soda pop addiction, but snacks and alcohol and so on? Not so much. I do stock up a bit if I am expecting visiting company, but that's the Southern hostess impulse. Not everyone wants to drink water and pop only, or eat lunch meat / cheese without bread, or cereal without milk. It gives me an excuse to buy some NOM! food once in a while, or order delivery food (I know a place that makes HUGE $3 sandwiches that can last me for two meals!). And I am not much of a drinker, so I still have near beers and vodka and stuff left over from months prior.

[Alp]

I agree. I try to rotate my grocery purchases, because eating the same thing over and over again IS boring!

I didn't think to just buy deli meats sans-bread, though. I'll have to try it sometime.

I don't cook because of roommate issues. aka where's my [cooking] pot? I will definitely take a crack at cooking in a few months.

Hope your electrical issues get sorted out soon.

[Lorelei]

They will not be sorted out; my mom is cheap (not that we are filthy rich to begin with), it does not inconvenience her in any way for the electrical problems to remain unaddressed, and the house is for sale. I will not have a working stove / oven until I get a job and relocate to ATL and get settled in my own place.

[Aquaman]

my clove cigarettes (Nooooooooooo, *whine*)

I hear Narconon has an addiction program that can help...

*grinning, ducking, and running*



(If you cought the double meaning, you won The Game. If not... well, you know the drill.)

[Lorelei]

Damn it, Aquaman. I R NOT GOIN' TO NARCONON.

I don't like overdosing on vitamins and sitting in stanky hot saunas.

[Raven]

I hear Narconon has an addiction program that can help...

*grinning, ducking, and running*



(If you cought the double meaning, you won The Game. If not... well, you know the drill.)

I caught it

[Stutroup]

I missed it D:

[Aquaman]

At the risk of spoiling the joke by explaining it, "narconon addiction program" didn't mention whether the addiction was cured or caused.

[seataka]

Re how tough things are getting, this is from the WSJ online Marketwatch pages:
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/how-to-invest-for-the-debt-bomb-explosion-2010-02-09?pagenumber=2

It's worse than they are letting on

[ethercat]

Welcome to Reaching for the Tipping Point, seataka.

Re how tough things are getting, this is from the WSJ online Marketwatch pages:
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/how-to-invest-for-the-debt-bomb-explosion-2010-02-09?pagenumber=2

It's worse than they are letting on

I hope it does not get as dire as the article predicts, because there will be a lot of people in a world of hurt, quite literally.  But I pretty much agree with the conclusion:

What's our alternative? A new American Revolution

But wait, wait, I hear you asking loudly: There must be an alternative to this dark descent into anarchy, to the loss of everything that made America the greatest nation in history?

Yes there is an alternative. Out of the ashes of anarchy must come a Second American Revolution. But unfortunately nothing will happen until a great crisis awakens America ... shocks the conscience of the masses ... we are "asleep" ... only a seismic, systemic shock will trigger the necessary revolution.

The future of our economy and indeed our nation demands another political revolution. We must take back our democracy and capitalism from a government run by Wall Street and its "Happy Conspiracy" ... their toxic self-serving power hold must be broken and, if not, a rising new conspiracy of China, India, oil-sovereignties and asset-rich nations will replace our homegrown "Happy Conspiracy" as it eventually goes down in the flames of anarchy.

Sadly, that's the future many of us realists see ahead for America.

I don't see how a nation wounded by unpayable debt on an individual level can work its way out of economic trouble by going into debt created by the government, which will be debt paid by whom?  The individual, many of whom have filed bankruptcy.  I would prefer to just give half my paycheck to my neighbor for his critical living expenses than to hand it over to the government to distribute in the ways they see fit, with a lot of bureaucracy costs to use the majority of it up.

I don't see this as a partisan issue; I see it as an issue of the government (of the people, by the people, and for the people), who are supposed to be public servants, treating the people as if they are the servants and the government is the master.  The cat's away and the mice are playing, playing with our money and our lives. 

Unfortunately, I fear that the prediction of a crisis being necessary to awaken people may be true.

I'm reminded of a song: North Sea Bubble by Billy Bragg.