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[Lorelei]

Here's some personal anecdotes; I've told some of you this stuff before, but it's not a secret or anything. Just personal. I mean, I've blogged about it and stuff. So you can disregard if you don't like personal anecdotes and things like that. I won't be butthurt. Just skipto another topic. It's cool, really.



OK, still with me? Cool. Well, as a sophomore in college, one P.E. teacher who was into various New Age-y things hosted a "yoga minimester." Since January was often accompanied by a lot of snow and foul weather, the college set aside January for special projects, minimester classes to explore various interests (I took a minimester on "Comedy" one year, which, while it had term papers required, also included at least one comedy film viewing a week. Another minimester was spent learning Ikebana, Japanese flower arranging. These were graded, but did not really affect your transcript one way or the other) and other short-term independent study work things.


I had wanted to take another class from the professor who hosted the Comedy minimester, as I found it useful and something I could tie in with my degree track, but his next minimester was on "Horror" and filled up quickly. Oh well. Stupid Anne Rice fans. *sigh* (For the REALLY younguns here, Rice's stuff was like the Twilight of the day, only SHE didn't totally suck (at least not until recently, since she's fired her editor) or try to get away with a bunch of BLANK PAGES in the middle of any of her books to demonstrate the passage of time. God, Twilight sucks so hard. But, I digress.)


The yoga minimester was, as it transpired, an exploration of a lot of New Age-y things. IIRC, we never did actually get around to doing much yoga (!) but we were coaxed to try Sufi dancing, drumming, meditation, relaxation, lotus position yadda yadda and a variety of other techniques. Some effects that visited the students trying these things out enthusiastically: vivid dreams / nightmares that "felt" prolonged, difficulty concentrating on technical reading / text books when classes resumed in February, a kind of moon-eyed bliss that resembled nothing so much as a person high on marijuana and, when it faded, was embarrassing to the blissed-out person, fidgetiness / inability to concentrate, etc. Not all the effects were detrimental (or, perhaps more accurately, they were not continued long enough to become detrimental). I, for one, was able to "let things go," an early warning sign of detachment. The good part is that I don't let SOME things get to me nowadays as easily; stuff that would have really put me in a bad mood before. The bad part is that, had I continued with that stuff, I might have felt it to be too much work to give a shit about ANYthing. Not giving a damn is not always a good thing; feeling like you are above all everyday life events and just floating along without participating or analyzing, bad; a little detachment and resisting getting dragged into every stupid drama around you all the time, perhaps not so bad (especially when you are a teen or twentysomething, amirite?). Also, since childhood, I had been plagued with horrible nightmares, really, really foul horrible ones; the kind that you wake up in a cold sweat from; the kind that stick with you for WEEKS; the kind that pretty much ruin a good night's sleep for you. I had a doozy of a nightmare during this minimester and, for whatever reason, I experienced a rush of extreme frustration about it instead of getting all wound up and spazzed out as usual, and actually said, out loud, that I had had enough of that nonsense. That, if my subconscious was trying to tell me something, it was really pissing me off by using this particular method. That, frankly, I had fucking had it with the stupid nightmares all the time and to CUT IT OUT. (My roommate thought I was off my nut!) Coincidentally (?), if I have had a nightmare since, I don't remember it. I certainly haven't been awakened from a good sleep by one for years. In fact, I can pretty much sleep anytime, anywhere, and through almost anything. I've also become aware of "forked decision paths" in dreams, where I have the option--if things seem to be heading towards something unpleasant--to backtrack or rewind and make a "better" decision that will make the dream narrative, such as it is, improve. Lucid dreaming? Maybe. Maybe not. I suspect that dreams are your subconscious blowing off steam and working out problems you were wrestling with during the day, and that's nice and all, but I'd rather work out my problems deliberately and consciously, and use logic rather than whatever my irrational, crazy, Id-soaked subconscious comes up with to throw at the issue. My subconscious is a very creative, but not very reliable or rational or grounded in reality, thing. There was even a class where the P.E. teacher, probably irresponsibly, decided to give us a taste of past life regression, though she was careful not to say what she thought about it. If you go along to get along, you will see / imagine something. For reals. The catch? The whole time I was trying to cooperate, and seeing a nice little "past life" in my head, I was also saying, to myself, "this is something I am making up, and it is all what I would WANT to be a past life, if those even exist. This is not something that I couldn't make up on my own. The historical details are off; this is what I think would have happened then, but now that I am applying my common sense and skepticism, I am seeing things that are wrong." The mind is a powerful thing, guys. Deprive it of input, and it starts trying to fill in the gaps, and make things seem to make sense, but the brain can be fooled (as optical illusions and deja vu and tricks of perspective and mis-hearing one word for another). If you are a creative person, you may be playing with fire, because your ability to create is going to help you fill in those gaps.  Now, what IF I was surrounded by peers who were all 100% convinced past lives were real, and saying they were "remembering" them, and implying I was not "doing it right" if I failed to produce one, too? Would I have given in to that peer pressure and started to believe I had had some real revelation that had meaning? Well, probably not...because my peers DID buy into it, at least some, and were all excited about what their imaginations had come up with. But, like my experience, theirs also lacked historical accuracy, and were all things that these people would LIKE to believe were past lives. At least no one claimed to be Cleopatra.


OK, that said, I became very leery of these sorts of things. I don't go along to get along without big very irritable about it, if at all. I don't WANT to stop thinking. I don't WANT do lose my ability to be rational. I don't want to contemplate my navel until I disappear up it.


The P.E. teacher's aims were, AFAICT, benign. She wanted to give people a taste of different belief systems and relaxation techniques. She wasn't pushing any belief system on anyone. As far as I recall, she was Jewish! And, to be fair, some of the environment contributed to making students more vulnerable to this sort of thing. Lots of people were stir crazy because the snow made it difficult to GO anywhere. Some were sleep-deprived because students frequently saw these classes as "classes that don't count" and would party and stay up for days on end and be sleep-deprived when they dragged themselves to class, if they went at all. Some students were taking what they learned that day and ineptly trying to share it with roommates and friends who were interested, and playing with fire by doing so. The snow kept a lot of people out of the cafeteria, including cafeteria workers, so sometimes people skipped meals, or ate ramen, or turned up their noses at the sandwiches and soups and other simple fare the reduced staff could slap together for them, and ate bowls of sugary kids' cereals instead, or lived on diet sodas. If you don't think that this counts as nutritional deprivation, you have never gotten lightheaded or faint-y because of a crap diet. During minimesters, you go to class every day, except weekends, too, so you get no "downtime" if you happen to be playing around with this sort of thing. I don't blame anyone for getting a little sucked in.


The point is, ANYONE is vulnerable, and it isn't pointing a finger in judgment to realize that. "Thought-stopping" can feel good, at last initially, especially if you have a normally very "busy" brain that "talks" at you a lot, or a slightly obsessive personality. Having someone tell you that your imagination has come up with something (they claim is) factual or cool (not that they will put it that way--it isn't your imagination, no way!) can make you feel all special, like you have psychic powers or something. You're so sensitive! No, like, EXTRA-sensitive! You're "seeing" (or experiencing, or channeling, or "remembering," or whatever!) stuff that "ordinary" people are too unenlightened or lazy or busy or lack the tools (available here for a "reasonable price," roll up, roll up, get your voltometer and books and vitamins here!) to see. Ain't that cool? And if you don't see it, but other people claim to, then what is wrong with you? Concentrate harder until you "see" it, too, or you're doing it wrong.


The class served, for me, as a serious warning about messing about with anything that disrupts your brain's normal functions. The initial benefit (relaxation, "interesting" illusions, whatever) can be achieved without fucking with your mind. So why even go there?


Also, remember that personal anecdotes, by definition, are hard if not impossible to prove. Reading "Snapping" (see other thread), I was struck by the similarity of these experiences to some reported by people who were or used to be members of "fringe groups" or movements or cults. That this was sanctioned and approved by a reputable, conservative, accredited college should make you worry a bit.

[Lorelei]

OK, now, hands up, anyone who was invited by a co-worker or friend to a Way Cool Meeting of Way Cool People? *hand goes up*

I was suspicious, to be fair, because I am kind of a dick like that, and naturally suspicious of anything out of the ordinary, but I was also naive enough to think I would be OK. I mean, I "knew" what cults were! No way would I get sucked into one of those! YEAH, RIGHT. I. Was. Lucky. And, as I was lucky, and the group did not punch any of my buttons, I WAS able to view it as a learning experience and a curiosity and not get sucked in. I am not a joiner. That probably helped, too. I don't enjoy big groups, and I don't care if I disagree with the majority of people in a room. I'm not going to "go along to get along."



Anyway, here were the warning signs:



* Newer members of the group were told that "the higher doesn't approach the lower." So you had a lot of people mindfucked about who they could talk to, if they were really "higher spiritual beings". Fine by me. They were weird. I was not bothered that they were--much like Jehovah's Witnesses decide you need a good dose of religion and theirs is the one to fit the bill without knowing anything about you--deciding, without knowing me, that I was a "lower" spiritual being. Yeah, whatever.



* The group was actively building a new home, or re-roofing it, or something, for Glorious Leader (not the name he went by; will share that off-board if anyone cares...he's dead now, anyway) on the weekend. Glorious Leader was kinda a jerk. A "GET ORF MAH LORN!" old geezer dude. He also had nothing to say that was not common fucking sense. I was not impressed. He had charisma, but charisma is not enough, for me. You have to make fucking sense, and not spout common sense observations as if you came up with them all by yourself. SRSly. This is the best ya got?



* The group appealed to angry people who felt taken advantage of by other people. I was not particularly angry, and whereas I was probably raised to be too polite, I did not feel that I was being taken advantage of by other people, or that crap in my life was someone else's fault if it was my fault, or my fault if it was not my fault. I didn't buy into this particular hook. One of the groups pamphlets was titled "NO!" (and was all about how to say it, and why, and who to). Fuck it, I said NO! to the group. See, no problem with NO! NO! is awesome. I highly recommend saying NO! when NO! is called for. (Or NO U. NO U is also awesome.)



* Glorious Leader reprinted a book of quotes from religious leaders and philosophers. It did not escape me, that, like John-Roger (look him up, and Peter McWilliams, too, while you are at it) and Hubbard and others, he included his own thoughts in the book as if they were on an equal level with Hume's or Buddha's or whoever's. It was a nice book, other than that. I may still have it.



* What else? Oh, yeah. You were (lightly) pressured to buy stuff, and lecture-meetings cost a buck to attend. My friend who was intrigued by the group was a total sucker and bought a buttload of shit. When I declined to buy any myself, he bought a buttload of shit FOR me. I probably still have it somewhere, too. To be fair, the prices were about a buck or two bucks per little pamphlet, depending on thickness, and the hardcover books were not priced at a 400%+ markup, as compared to other hardcover books you can buy in a bookstore, like Hubbard's books are. This is another thing that the cult did to get people hooked: if you weren't really a reader, it is possible you'd see these common sense comments as brilliant insights and be really impressed. I like to read, what can I say? About 99% of what he wrote, I had already read written elsewhere, probably in the original source, or it was stuff that, as an observant person, I had already noticed for myself when out and about interacting with people.



* I started asking questions about the group, and--this is probably important--I asked people who were not In the group, or who had left it, too; not just people who were totally into it. I found an ex-member, a co-worker, and had my suspicions confirmed. Whereas it was probably not the most mind-fucking cult out there, it was still a goddamned cult. People were throwing money at Glorious Leader, who, apparently, was perpetually cranky because he actually didn't want them to do that. (Not sure whether I buy that or not, but G.L. did not live in luxury, by any means. G.L. also regularly yelled at people during meetings to think for themselves and not to take his word for every thing, which was refreshing. My opinion is that G.L. was a guy who wrote a bunch of stuff down that he thought was awesome, some people agreed, he gave some lectures upon request, and then those people put him on a pedestal as a figurehead of the cult much like Bible-based sects might put God or Jesus there, but the behavior of the sect or cult can't be blamed on the figurehead. I also suspect that this impression of G.L. might be contrived, but I had no desire to stick around to figure that out for sure.) Anyway, people were getting fucked in the head by this cult, which may or may not have been formed by G.L. or his top "True Believers," and for every "revelation" they got from his common sense writings, the more they revered the writer. And, if his irritation was sincere, the more he thought they were all retarded...but if they wanted to help him fix his roof, what the fuck, fine.



Sticking point, here: was this group really and truly a cult? For some members, at least, I'd say yes. They were constantly mindfucked by the "higher / lower" business and a number of other mindfuck koans I can't recall right off the bat (but they were all pretty much like that). That they CHOSE to get hung up on that and judge others as evolved or not before getting to know them well, and changed their behavior so that they were less likely to interact with outsiders? Reminds me of the wogs / Homo Novis business, amirite? They started off wanting to be better people. They felt beat up by life, and wanted to deal with stuff better. They were nice and wanted to help others without getting taken advantage of. Not too bad, right? Could be you, could be me. Nice folks. They wound up totally introverted and constantly freaking out about interacting with "lower" people. They were afraid to be charitable, lest they encourage someone to get stuck on some lower spiritual level (plus, you'd have to interact with lower people! Ew!) Reminds me of "lowtone" people, or being scared of PTS people / SPs, and the Sci attitude towards charity (i.e., it is bad). Also, they were deifying Glorious Leader even though G.L. at least PRETENDED he didn't want that, so everything G.L. said, no matter how mundane or obvious or contradictory or downright weird, was pure gold. The most passionate group members took on G.L.'s outward personality (irascible, cranky old fart) to a degree; like I said, people who were self-pitying and mad at the world really were drawn to this "energy". Being angry and, frankly, selfish, and judgmental, well, that was "safer" for these fragile souls, who clearly needed help because the world, let's face it, is kinda fucked up. Again, sound familiar? Sound like Scientology's view of the state of the world (mad, bad, dangerous to know)?



Was it destructive? I suspect that, for some, yes. There were a lot of dead- and/or glassy-eyed folks milling about on the periphery. The group made them "happy," it really "helped" them. The group was aces. It "worked for them." (Again, does this ring a bell? "It works and it helps people"? Even if they eventually get all dependent and zombified?) However, the group members did not really "witness" to other people. They did not force donations, though they did ask for them (and gave something in return that was pretty much worth what you paid, considering what it would cost to print and bind that stuff). They did not require attendance at lecture-meetings, though those who came often were clearly favoured and thought they were "higher" spiritually. (Actually, you could tell you had been there for whatevr length of time, because curious visitors were pretty ordinary, noobs were all obsessed with the higher / lower (and similar) stuff and wouldn't look you in the eye or talk to you, longer-time members had gotten over that particular hurdle and communicated with everyone but were a bit "off" or weird, and then the real old timers were just shambling wrecks who were mumbling to themselves a lot, pretty much, and were kept off to the sides with busywork tasks or moving chairs around or stacking pamphlets or something.) I think that the coercion factor was, at least for a casual drop-in person, pretty low. I suspect it might have been amped up if you became a familiar face. If you kept coming back, then, hoorah, you were buying into what they were selling! Welcome, new brethren and sistren! The ex was not terribly damaged, in her own opinion, just REALLY bitter and sad...and she regretted donating as much money and time to the group as she had, and hated how judgmental and angry and self-righteous she had been. She hated how the group became the sole focus in her life, and how anything that was not related to the group was automatically bad or suspect, and how anyone who didn't like her involvement in the group was trying to "bring her down" or something, and should be avoided or the group shouldn't be discussed anymore with them. The group was not keen on people watching TV (no great loss for me; I went 6 years, long after this experience, voluntarily ignoring the TV...in favour of the computer!), but newspapers and books were fine. She hated how the long-timers / True Believers behaved, and implied that there was some bad shit going down behind the scenes, and a struggle for power (G.L. was REALLY old), and so on. This reminds me of the different types of Scientologists: those who dabble in the tech / auditing / accessories and books as publics, those who are shift-staff people who hang out with other True Believers all day but still go home at night, and those who sign everything away to be in the Sea Org and are totally at the mercy of the group and its management for food (gross and cheap!), berthing (tiny rooms full of triple-stacked bunkbeds!), medical care (none!), child care (crap!), transport (you go when we say you can go, and not until!), clothing (Hell-Ooo, Sailor!), etc. The group's long-timers / old-timers were kind of creepy, but obviously much revered by newbie group members (reminds me of the reverence held for Clears and OTs, which, unsurprisingly, have never demonstrated their supposed powers or skills in any way, just like this group's oldtimers had never really appeared to be higher spiritual beings with inner peace and great wisdom and understanding to me...just kind of sad and dazed).



My gut feeling is that, because of the low overt coercion and non-existent "witnessing" and lack of promises about "salvation" or even a better life ("new," maybe, but not necessarily better!), the group is probably LESS destructive than many; however, because of the obvious groupthink and judgment of outsiders and similar things (they were gung ho about meditating, for instance, which can be thought-stopping), and their inability to put the written materials in perspective with similar non-group written materials which predated the group's, and this obsessive focus on how people basically suck and you have to protect yourself from EVERYONE, I can't see how it would NOT be destructive to some.



Maybe that makes it on a level with some AA groups, or people who base their identity totally on "being a biker" or "being a Mac user." I suspect that what seemed mostly benign to me as a brief visitor who wasn't won over by their messages might be much less benign if you decided to throw yourself totally into it and support it full-time, and my chats with the ex supported that assumption.



I was sick of these people after three lecture/meetings (which were long, but not as bladder-bustingly long as some cult groups' are), and thus in no mood to deal with any other groupthink nonsense when Scientologists tried to bother me (on a regular basis) on my way to work, going as far as to follow me there to corner me. I was not receptive. I probably wouldn't have been even if they got to me first. (I collected quite a tall stack of "personality tests" that were ridiculous and unscientific and which all got thrown away when I left Nevada, because I had dozens of them stuck in my face whenever I was minding my own business and walking to work.)



Hey, I already knew how to say NO!  I didn't need Glorious Leader's silly pamphlet to do that...or more precisely, to get PERMISSION to do that...but maybe, just MAYBE, I said NO! more firmly than I would have before, being a polite young lady from Dahn Sawf and all. Scientologists have a way of being super-persistent, though. That's the exact wrong tact to take with a non-joiner who is annoyed with groupthinking, I must say. And I am glad that is so.



If you're the type of person who is a joiner, a group person, a "people person" who hates being alone, or the type of person who would really get excited about experiencing temporary brain glitches that seem all exciting and special and not at all easily explained logically or scientifically (except, of course, they can be and are), you need to watch out. Everyone should.



What IF I had been in a vulnerable space? What IF my friend was a boyfriend I desperately wanted to impress or share things with? (Fortunately, my skepticism and observations--and those of the ex I found--quickly killed his interest in the group, too.)  I was already geographically at a distance from most of my other friends and my family. The hot weather was grinding me down, too. What IF I had not been appalled by what happened at Jonestown, and seriously affected by it, and thus adamant about not getting involved in anything remotely similar? What IF I was slightly more unhappy with my life or having a crisis of faith of some sort and desperate for ANY answers? What IF I was just lonely? Or curious?



Note that I am not saying I am smarter or wiser than anyone else. I said it before and say it again: I was LUCKY. Lucky that my buttons weren't pushed. Lucky that I am not a group person. Lucky that I am a stubborn cuss who doesn't like being told what I should do; I will always ask "Why?" and want to see references and third-party reviews and so on.



And, NO!, I do not want to join your club. NO!, I am not interested in taking your test. NO!, I am not going to your dumb meeting.



That NO! stuff is not so bad. Maybe that's like one of those "raisins in the shit pile" Arnie Lerma referred to, though, where the cult is concerned, I am partial to this one: "What's good is not original, and what's original is not good." Yeah, seen that before.



NO!, thank you.

[SocialTransparency]

 I once got trapped into attending an Amway party. The pressure was on. I buckled. Ended up with a bunch of vitamins and plastic ware I did not need or could sell for that matter. I did learn from the experience though! It was not an actual NRM, but close.

 Here,s another experience I had. When I moved to this state, I did not have any friends, so I hung out with some of my co-workers. One of my fellow co-workers, a really nice guy and part time minister, invited me to a friday night party. I thought cool. I went to said party and low and behold, I had stepped into a group of Pentecostal Christians.

 No real problem on that note, yet when we all joined hands in a circle, and thanked God for whatever, some within the group twisted,contorted and started speaking in some language only they understood. Totally caught this poster off guard.

 When it was my turn to give thanks, I was still kind of shocked, I mumbled something about how thankful I was to be here and about the new people I had met.

 Only later on did the friend that had originally invited me to the party fess up to what his real personal agenda was. My friend had an eye for the lady that hosted the party. Not a problem on my end, just was kind of weird that I was somewhat used as a way to aid my friend. Or that is how I perceived the situation.

 I never went to another one of those parties when my friend invited me. Just not my cup of tea!

[mefree]

I couldn't help but think about a job interview that I had once that was similar to your Amway experience, ST.

I knew from the get-go that something was up. I didn't buy anything. That was my first clue that something was up.

The idea is for them to pay me, amirite? I vamoosed out of there quickly never to return.

[Lorelei]

There are a lot of those scams--companies that want you to buy something before they'll hire you. Run, don't walk. Also, beware of being hired as a sales shill for a disreputable company hiding behind a front group.

I was hired by a "talent agency" and my initial web searching did not uncover anything untoward, but after the initial relief (I have a job! yay!), which lasted about 2-3 days, something did not sit right with me and on Day 4, I still had an icky feeling about the company. I wondered, "do I just not like direct sales? or am I picking up on something else? why am I feeling so uncomfortable?" So--despite the fact that they kept me very busy with meetings and training and so forth--I found time to get online when I finally got home at night and I kept digging. If it was reputable, then my researching it some more wouldn't hurt anything, right?

Finally I found a link from the talent agency to the parent company, which had a different name and which was listed ALL OVER various consumer protection websites as being fraudulent or not worth what clients would pay. To say I was angry and felt used would be an understatement. To be fair, they did get SOME people work. The problem was, they promised big things for all of their "talent." You can't DO that. Further, they did not pay their staff a living wage.

I did what you are supposed to do: research a company you intend to work for. I remained skeptical and on the alert for what was making my alarm bells go off. Unfortunately, much like Scientology, the parent company had essentially set up "front groups" with very different names. That made it difficult to get good info on the parent company, which I didn't know existed. It was like unwrapping a poo, layer by layer.

The company had rented or purchased posh office space, which implied legitimacy, but, once inside, it was suspiciously "bare bones" with cheap folding chairs and fake flowers, and at one point we had to scrounge all over the office for a working ballpoint pen. My "boss" wore a nice suit, and carried a nice bag, but had cheap shoes...which you couldn't see, under the desk...and one day I saw her get into a banged-up, rusty Honda. Hmmm. Successful? Maybe not so much. One of the interviewed "talent" in the rah-rah training video claimed to have been recruited in one state, but I could swear that his identical twin, in a tiny picture in the printed materials, had a different name and supposedly was hired in another state. Little things that just didn't feel right. I confronted one of my bosses with the reports on the consumer watchdog websites, and she got angry, and told me I shouldn't pay any attention to those, they were all ex-employees lying about the company because they were just bad salespeople and thus were disgruntled.

O RLY?! Lady, you must think I am an idiot. Pssssh.

Buh-bye!

They did not pass the sniff test, so I never went back.

[Lorelei]

Also, I really never socialize with co-workers. I'm there to work, not to make friends. I'll be nice, I'll be pleasant, I'll chit-chat with you, I'll even go to lunch with you, but I won't be your best buddy and stuff; if you aren't friends, you don't get hit up to buy Amway, Avon, Tupperware, wrapping paper and greeting cards, band candy, Girl Scout cookies, candles, etc.

You also don't get bothered by office politics as often.

On the downside, you stand or fall entirely on your own, without a possibly politically powerful co-worker having your back.

Don't ever bring your personal life into the office. The chances that it will help you more than hurt you are nearly nil.

[Alp]

Waitaminute... I LIKE Girl Scout cookies!

And yes, I have seen plenty of those "pay us for these training materials/give us your CC#/give us money and we'll give you an awesome job" scams, and avoided them all like the plague. If it sounds too good to be true...it probably is.

[Lorelei]

I LOVE Girl Scout cookies (one year I sold the most in all of Georgia, actually, back when we all had to go door to door unaccompanied and I didn't sell any to businesses; they were all sold to individual households) but I do not buy them at work. I buy them from actual Girl Scouts. They aren't difficult to find; many of them cluster at grocery stores during Cookie Time. I try to buy as many as will fit in my freezer, to tide me over until next year.

Never pay to get a job. Reputable recruiters and staffing companies are paid by companies to find workers, not by the workers themselves.